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Ultimate Has A Bad Bid Problem

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#2

As someone who believes that as much decision-making and control as possible should remain in the hands of players, I think the onus is on us to find real, practical solutions to this problem. We all have a responsibility to look out for the safety of each other as players and for the integrity of the our sport as a self-officiated game. I think it is wrong to immediately concede this authority to third-party officials, though that will happen if we cannot adequately address it ourselves.

We pride ourselves as a community on our ability to work through tough conversations and hold ourselves and each other to a higher standard. But if we can’t have the honest, difficult discussion about what we all can – and must – do to address this problem, we should not be surprised to see third-parties taking on a more active role in protecting player safety.

To what extent are we comfortable asking third parties to step in and enforce rules? How should we define the type of play that we collective agree deserves more accountability than a simple foul-no contest? What should that accountability look like? This is our opportunity to have a say in how this issue is addressed. We need to speak up now or the rules or enforcement responsibilities will change in ways we may not agree with or like.

Let’s engage in being a part of informing our community’s (and USAU’s) response to this issue rather than settling for decrying it from the sideline.

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#3

This discussion is long overdue.

Personally want to think more about the best solution, but I don’t think the Chastain example is the best to make your case. At the instant she took off, McKeon was still upright and Chastain had a clear path to block the disc with minimal/no contact. Unfortunately, McKeon started to slide just barely after Chastain took off, and Chastain couldn’t change course. Some of the other examples (not all), while definitely dangerous, may even go into the realm of malicious intent.

Gut reaction: while USAU/AUDL need to improve enforcement and disciplinary mechanisms, players need to exercise greater discretion, judgment and accountability toward their opponents and teammates. And that may translate to specific players adjusting their more dangerous habits, or teammates/opponents having productive discussions with one another about changing their habits.

“Win at all costs” or “going hard” is not an acceptable excuse for a dangerous play, especially in a sport that places such a premium on sportsmanship, character and community (I hate the term “spirit of the game,” but we all know what we’re talking about here).

This being said, most in the ultimate community are mature adults with plenty of playing experience and shouldn’t need a hall monitor dictating when crossing the line in such egregious situations…

Disclaimer: I am no saint and have certainly committed egregious fouls in the past. Not proud of them, but have made conscious efforts to avoid dangerous bids more recently.

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#4

Agree with your view, Charlie.

A few thoughts:

The second Drescher collision with Salaam – Drescher dives purposefully after contact… can’t remember the last time I saw this in high-level ultimate. Also I got the sense this was Salaam playing enforcer after the first hit to protect himself next time… Are we heading toward fights next? Because that’s the next escalation – almost happened after the first incident in the endzone with the spiked disc…

The Markham collision too also almost ended in a fight. That collision was the worst of all your examples. No regard for your fellow man. Powell must be a fan of DJT.

The Lim play was just unfortunate because it was the result of a floaty disc that was misread by all three players… Matzuka misread it (or rather it floated on it) and gave up position… Montague had basically given up until he saw it floated… Lim also misreads and then when he realizes it floated and he didn’t have a play, failed to get out of the way.

The Allstar/Nighlock play… was a self-inflicted poor decision and read. I don’t see how the defender could have done anything differently.

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#5

The first step has to be for team mates and coaches to start saying that these plays will not be tolerated, rather than defending poor judgement by someone just because they are a friend.

Until we see that objectivity from teams - and yes, it might hurt your chances of winning - then I don’t see the situation improving.

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#6

Interesting reading the comments since there does not seem to be agreement that all these examples were fouls (which may be the case) or even that all were dangerous on the part of the D. But in all cases (except maybe the Chastain case), it was in the control of the defender to avoid contact if they had chosen to. The Salam case is interesting since I’m not sure it was a foul, yet he could have avoided contact - and is further complicated in that it’s not clear whether the injury was due entirely to the D’s contact vs. a “dive”. Just pointing this out to highlight how subtle this conversation will be, and that it will not be as straightforward as a foul/no foul judgement. BTW, I agree with Charlie that Observers/Refs must be involved, need the teeth to enforce a “no dangerous bid” rule, and must start using it. That is independent of the point others make that teams need to adopt the appropriate attitude within their team culture Both are needed.

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#7

Came here to post about the nuances of many of these plays and I’m very happy to see that others have already taken up that cause.

I don’t disagree with the overall premise of the article, but many of the examples used are not black and white:

  • Chastain’s bid. Unusual contact. A foul yes, but not even a TMF let alone a PMF.
  • Lim/Matzuka/Montague. We can’t give the offense preference on a disc. Matzuka is running into a space unaware of his surroundings and he initiates contact with Lim. This is not like the Jax play, because if Matzuka was aware of the space he was running into, he could have avoided contact (the ATL player could not have avoided contact).
  • Salaam/Drescher. This one is bizarre. I don’t know what causes Drescher’s body to wildly move like that, but it doesn’t seem like it was due to the contact from Salaam. Again, foul on Salaam, but that contact doesn’t cause an injury >99% of the time (i.e. not a dangerous play).
#8

Bingo. But do you think players will be able to overcome their own team dynamics to talk to their teammates?

Maybe captains/coaches stating their intolerance for these plays before they even happen, so at least players are thinking about it. Instead of waiting to react when the incident happens, in which, the social pressure might be too difficult to overcome.

#9

This seems redundant to complain about the examples. We all know what the point of the examples are even if you don’t agree with them. They all undeniably involve heavy contact which is what the article is trying to bring to our attention. If you agree with the article’s point and not the examples, find better ones. There are plenty of dangerous plays in every league. We should be discussing how to approach fixing the problem rather than nit picking at the examples.

I for one am all for observers exercising the power to eject players and hand out PMF’s. Yardage penalties start to steer too far away from a self officiated sport in my opinion but if it is the best solution to protect us as players, then I wouldn’t be totally against it.

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#10

There is a second angle of the Chastain’s bid, which to me makes it look worse. Still not black and white, but more than unusual contact IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V88iW0DPQ8c

#11

So I took another look at Salaam/Drescher two since I called it a “dive” initially and others said he got injured on the play… I’m wrong – not a dive. Salaam protects himself by using his shoulder (probably because of the prior play highlighted and general contact on that matchup throughout the game). this feels like “normal” contact to me and steering the cutter to a suboptimal position. Unfortunately,that shoulder contact causes a misstep and hyperextension, which is why Drescher looks like he dives… his leg locked and he just crumpled over to avoid more damage I think… would be interesting to hear from him.

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#12

That replay angle makes it look like Chastain is going for the classic Nord-style reach-around block. McKeon moves in a way that turns that into a bad collision. But the same could have happened if Doug Moore had done that while Nord reached around (photo here). So was that a dangerous play by Nord?

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#13

From the view behind Chastain’s bid it look pretty clear that she was trying her best to not make contact but McKeon changes how she attacks the disc to keep it from hitting the ground and slides into the path of Chastain. The fouls on Markham Shofner and Sean Sears are both reckless and should not be allowed if players safety is the main priority.

Another area to look at is players running into players who are in the air causing their legs to go up and changing a landing on your feet, to a 3+ foot fall onto your back or side. Personally, I have had this happen a few times and the worse of which left me with a bruised tailbone/hip and back spasms. There are 1 or 2 times that I can understand why the other player couldn’t stop but the others seemed to not care that they took my legs out from under me.

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#14

That’s what I was thinking but the problem is you can argue that if the offensive player makes an adjustment after the bid then it’s now a dangerous play.

#15

Charlie, as anticipated, I disagree with you. Show me the evidence for the underlying assumption that more PMFs will reduce this behaviour, particularly given the failure of repeated ejections to curb Jacksonville. Without some evidence to offer there, your argument is empty.

#16

Did you mean “can’t argue…”?

#18

No, I meant “can argue” because the defensive player is trying to make a play from behind the offensive player. If the offensive player gets to a spot first and the defensive player hits them then they will say its a foul on the defense, even if the defensive player made a bid before the offensive player got to the spot. Its the problem when trying to self officiate a call on the field when a player hits you from behind. You don’t know that player made a bid before you moved in front of them giving them no way to avoid you, you just know someone slammed into you.

Do I personally think that’s a foul or a dangerous play? No. Looking at the picture of Nord curving his body around the other player, its clear he is trying to avoid contact. Its just the question of what would we think if the other player moved in front of Nord after that bid showing a picture of the two colliding?

#19

Can you show evidence that it doesn’t? How do you know Jacksonville wouldn’t be making more bad bids than they already are if ejections were not happening?

#20

Just two thoughts:

  1. Why not keep the current PMF/TMF structure AND give players/coaches the ability to call PMFs/TMFs in observed games that can be contested and upheld/overturned by observers?
  • In games that are not observed, PMFs including those that are contested and downgraded to regular fouls are documented and reported to the tournament director, along with scores.
  1. Why not devise a penalty system for teams with low/abysmal scores in the contact/physicality section on the spirit surveys that teams have been asked to fill out at all triple crown events so far?
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#21

The things we celebrate are what we are going to get more of. We need more highlights like this:

Barely hit the player’s arms/hands and called his own foul. That’s the game of ultimate that I know and love.

Aside from more positive reinforcement, there might a need for more negative consequences. A crazy idea:

  • Why can’t players call PMFs and TMFs and the like (possibly after some required cooling off period)? Why did we depart from player officiating for those calls? I think we’ve all gotten riled up and made stupid plays, but if my teammates and/or respected opponents were the ones to calmly point that out to me, I think I’d take it well and sit down and take a breather. There are have even been times when I’ve sat myself down to calm myself. It’d be good for the players to take that responsibility of themselves.
#22

Normally I don’t comment but some of these plays make my blood boil. I believe it’s truly up to the players, it always will be. Rules enforcing safer play are needed, but i walk onto the field each time trusting everyone out there to have my safety in mind, especially when playing this fast of a game. Seems to me one of the few things NFL got right was the he rule about defenseless recievers and not being able to protect themselves. We should not allow someone to blindside a player and continue playing in that game - everyone’s safety trumps their right to play every time.